> One of the arguments that used to be made about being gay is that it's not a choice. I never found this a convincing argument. In my view, I don't care whether it's a choice or not. It's still your choice to make. So I think I was progressive even back then.
People telling me that its a choice - even in an an affirming way still makes me all but violently angry to be very honest - because it presumes that I would chose to be a victim - which runs head long into my own ideological views. Being a victim is something that is generally outside if your control, and not something you'd willingly choose.
> But now it's changed. It's no longer about not caring but, rather, people like me should care, for some reason. I get that if this was a human rights or civil liberties issue, but it's not. We're past that. So why, then, is "gay pride" a thing, if not to push what should be a private issue into people's faces? Why is it in the workplace? You don't have sex at work so why do I need to know that you're gay? How does that help achieve our goals?
Another thing I'd note - I should have the same right to talk about my personal life as everyone else does - straight folks talk about their wives, girlfriends, husbands and boyfriend - I ought to be able to do the same. I shouldnt need to leave a whole sector of my life out to deal with someone else's sensibilities.
> Not caring is now demonised. The goal posts just keep moving. If there were concrete issues that haven't been considered then I'm all ears. But I really don't hear them. It's just "you must acknowledge that I'm different!" while I just keep saying "I don't care!" like I always have done.
There is a difference here - I agree with you that the goalpost has moved, but not where the goalpost moved to - it's not just acknowledgement, I'd argue that its moved to celebrate.
> People telling me that its a choice - even in an an affirming way still makes me all but violently angry to be very honest - because it presumes that I would chose to be a victim - which runs head long into my own ideological views. Being a victim is something that is generally outside if your control, and not something you'd willingly choose.
Yes. In case it was unclear, I don't think being gay is a choice. As a man I know very well there is no choice involved with what makes you aroused and what doesn't. My point was that it's really a separate issue and the fact it's not a choice should not be the reason it's "allowed". I'm not gay, but there should be nothing wrong with me choosing to take part in gay sex as long as nobody is being harmed.
> Another thing I'd note - I should have the same right to talk about my personal life as everyone else does - straight folks talk about their wives, girlfriends, husbands and boyfriend - I ought to be able to do the same. I shouldnt need to leave a whole sector of my life out to deal with someone else's sensibilities.
You're right and I completely agree. This is the kind of "normalisation" I think that was initially the goal and one that I continue to support. I think the feeling is it's gone a bit beyond that, though. It's not just an incidental mention of a same sex partner, it's bright blue hair and constant signalling where it isn't necessary. The gay men (that I'm aware of) at my work are completely professional and really have only ever asked for equality, nothing more.
> There is a difference here - I agree with you that the goalpost has moved, but not where the goalpost moved to - it's not just acknowledgement, I'd argue that its moved to celebrate.
This is something I can't relate to. Maybe it's because I'm not part of minority. I'm not proud to be straight. I'm not proud to be a man either (in the sense that I have XY chromosomes and balls). I just am those things. I was born with it. Why would I be proud of it? It's not what defines me. When I introduce myself to people I tell them my name. If they enquire further I will tell them my interests and achievements. I don't say "hi, I'm a straight, white man who was born that way". I don't understand being proud of something you were born with, especially something as insignificant as who you like to have sex with.
I'm proud of my gayness insomuch as it's adversity I've overcome and it's given me a perspective on the world as a minority that had a not been gay I might not have had.
I'm proud of the things being gay has brought me, the accomplishments from it, the journey - that's what pride is actually about, celebrating that journey, those accomplishments, the community we formed to overcome adversity.
There is something valuable in being different than the norm, because of the perspective it does indeed bring you, and it's okay in my book to feel pride about that.
My hope is one day, there won't be a need for pride anymore, we're not there yet, but maybe in my lifetime.
Thanks for this valuable insight. I have learnt something from this. I understand that you do have something to be proud about and that it's not just being proud of being gay, but proud of being gay in this world.
People like me often make the mistake of jumping too far ahead. I'm basically already 10-20 years ahead here, so in my mind I don't feel like you need to be proud of anything. I have to remind myself that others aren't as quick and change happens more slowly.
Shame that my original comment was flagged, so I'm probably the only person who will read this.
I wonder how common this issue is, hoe often we're just talking past one another. Even though we're agreeing.
I think some folks on my side of this are stuck in the past, Trump's election in some ways paused our internal mental realization of our own progress greatly.
If anything it made us feel as if the last 20-25 years of progress was imminently threatened, and we're seeing the reaction to this right now. It saddens me so very greatly, because it just inflames things further and somewhat perversely that reactionary tendency puts the progress at risk.
People telling me that its a choice - even in an an affirming way still makes me all but violently angry to be very honest - because it presumes that I would chose to be a victim - which runs head long into my own ideological views. Being a victim is something that is generally outside if your control, and not something you'd willingly choose.
> But now it's changed. It's no longer about not caring but, rather, people like me should care, for some reason. I get that if this was a human rights or civil liberties issue, but it's not. We're past that. So why, then, is "gay pride" a thing, if not to push what should be a private issue into people's faces? Why is it in the workplace? You don't have sex at work so why do I need to know that you're gay? How does that help achieve our goals?
Another thing I'd note - I should have the same right to talk about my personal life as everyone else does - straight folks talk about their wives, girlfriends, husbands and boyfriend - I ought to be able to do the same. I shouldnt need to leave a whole sector of my life out to deal with someone else's sensibilities.
> Not caring is now demonised. The goal posts just keep moving. If there were concrete issues that haven't been considered then I'm all ears. But I really don't hear them. It's just "you must acknowledge that I'm different!" while I just keep saying "I don't care!" like I always have done.
There is a difference here - I agree with you that the goalpost has moved, but not where the goalpost moved to - it's not just acknowledgement, I'd argue that its moved to celebrate.